Curse

justadude · Nov 19, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some Guru Named Kai

Anet should have placed this mission at the end of Istani island, before entering mainland, that way people who aren't failures like us, can rake in the profit from greens this weekend.

...who aren't failures like us...

aren't is poor English and you just called yourself a failure. I think the implied meaning says EVERYTHING anyone needs to know about you. Guild Wars is a video game and it does not define if you are a failure or not. You apparently think it does... I believe with that misguided sweeping generalization you tried to insult many people who play Guild Wars, but failed nonetheless.

Oh, you did not understand my post. This was obvious from your reply.

Remember when reading: Views other than your own may be valid

Clord · Nov 19, 2006, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Personally, I don't really care. I tried it once and had other problems (mainly, I had a really really bad team setup for this mission). As long as it is doable, I'll get it eventually and I do not mind the challenge.

However, one needs to also realize that there are different levels of players along with different skill level. For instance, I had no character any where close to capping Spoil Victor. For me, no big deal I'll just get a character far enough in Factions that I can cap it (I never liked Factions enough to play it that far. My necro is in the hatchery now, one mission away. Though I took time off for the greens and to get Vabbian armor - got my fill of both this weekend).

But what about the people without Factions? Or without Prophecies for SS? Or what about the unwanted classes if it needs a co-ordinated experienced team? I understand people wanting the challenge - again it's fine with me also, I'll get through it eventually and there is plenty of other things to do. It's not like I'm going to rage-quit or become more than slightly annoyed, but this game needs the "casual" player.

Requiring end/late game elites (that's OK if it requires ones from Nightfall, but requiring you to have nearly beaten the other two previous games also is bad game design for something intended to be standalone) to do any good is going to drive people away. While you may very well get your "noob filter" (or heaven forbid like a previous poster wanted - *all* missions to be hard for an experienced co-ordinated team), it will be the last as few will purchase again later.

The saving grace here is that a good portion of the "casual" gamers never get this far. Though I would say elite missions are where higher to high levels of difficulty needs to come in, not main story line. Of course, just having the one elite mission hurts the higher end player too.

It still needs to be realistic that a person owning only Nightfall is going to beat the mission with heroes and henchies. Based on what I have read about all the working tactics that is horribly untrue. As to how to fix that, dunno. A nerf to Shiro is easy, but I do not think that is exactly the right answer - I would suggest (amongst other things) having the lightbringer title play into it similar to a celestial skill in Factions. It will be interesting to see if Anet adjusts this mission in some way - for one thing we can whine and bicker all day long but without server logs it is impossible to tell if the failure rate is unacceptable.

We need official bot system what walk, fight, farm and do missions for you. Not to mention Enviormental Effect - Superman what add HP and MP regen +1000, armor +1000 and HP +1000.

Pandora's box · Nov 19, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

I have to meet Shiro yet. Sounds like a great challenge for a short Arena game

Seems I need to be prepared for that mission. Is it the same Shiro as in Factions? Read about him on Guildwicky. Main things I learned there was that you need blinding and life stealing spells to beat him. Is that correct?

Rather than discuss whether or not this is a hard mission I would like to see builds that beat the guy and still can be used in the rest of the mission. Saw some interesting ideas in this thread. Maybe its an idea to gather 'kill Shiro' builds and post them somewhere?

Karlos · Nov 19, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

It's the same Shiro but weakened. The Shiro in Factions had the same skills I mentioned, plus Echoing Banishment (which took out one of your party members and replaced him with a bad guy till that bad guy is killed), and his knockout uber skill is stripped too. It's called Meditation of the Reaper, which was his main heal and nuke at the same time. Nasty stuff. The difference is the uber skills that Kuunavang gave you when you went in to fight him.

swiftygem · Nov 19, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I went with heroes+henchies the first time and failed. Second try with General Morgan with Motivation build (all the restoration stuff), me with Command build (Incoming) and Koss with Wild Blow and dear Shiro dropped in no time

The same team build got me through the last mission with only 1 henchie death as well. Dual paragons rule

Riken Chrono · Nov 19, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Shrines help wonders. Degen helps too i guess. Definetly have a spoil victor necro and an incoming paragon.
If you're the tank, riposted work wonders as well.

tassadar · Nov 19, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Shiro is like a riposte warrior,hes got no pressure unless u attack him, i took out lich and capped shrines while shiro couldnt take any of my party peeps down to 75%, once u get shrines hes cake

strcpy · Nov 19, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlos

strcpy, if you read what I just posted, you will discover that you rpost is entirely unwarranted. I have beaten Shiro 4/4 times with an ele and a monk. Neither time did I have anyonw with Spoil Victor, nor will Spoil Victor save your butt when good old "Impossible Odds" kicks in.

All there is to it is understanding his strengths and weaknesses. You can break his stances with any of 3 professions, you can hex snare him with 2 professions and you can interrupt him with a bunch of ways. So, overall, your statement that the mission design requires Spoil Victor or SS or whatever is simply not true.

So, you played through pretty much as a first time player would? Your heroes used the few skills they would have under those circumstances? I bet you have under 200 hours game time also?

I used Spoil Victor and SS as examples because that is the standard response - did your build use skills and tactics that a nightfall only character would? I bet no more than I am. Heck, there are photos floating around of people who beat all the missions from the Desert on up in prophecies with no skills and no attribute points just using the henchies. Since it is very possible to do would it be OK to require such a thing? I doubt I could do it, I doubt many here could - yet it is *possible*. That's why "possible" is irrelevant, we could have every mission and explorable area have status effects similar to The Deep - quite possible to still beat but so frustrating as to be no fun at all.

For one moment step back and think like someone wanting to sell games. You have to make something that the majority of players can deal with. Those of us with many hours of in game time, lots of unlocks, lots of gold/weapons, read forums, create decent builds, etc are in the minority - lots of things are possible. That's what places like UW, FoW, The Deep etc are for. You better have a game first time players and the true casual player are going to enjoy and want to continue playing and purchasing other Guildwars. Otherwise you will not have a game to play later on.

Warrior Of The Toon · Nov 19, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I killed him 1st time with a PUG, just know what you're doing, add a pinch of luck and you're fine, oh and always have someone who can run'n'res for you just in case.

freekedoutfish · Nov 20, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by vojnik

Same fighting as in factions, just has 2 less skills.

You really have to complain about everything dont ya?

If ive ever complained about something, i tend to start off by saying "I really like this blah blah blah, I think its cool, but this tiny little thing is over-powered or just out of place."

Am I not allowed to find faults with parts of the game, or am I meant to think the entire game is perfect?

As a whole, I love GWs, but im not going to kiss ass and say its all perfect when I find something I dont like.

Russell.Crowe · Nov 20, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

the answer is... spoil victor!

Phades · Nov 20, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

1 assassin with wild strike and wild blow pretty much stops those nasty stances everyone here is upset about. If that option isn't available, using a warrior with wild blow and a paragon with wild throw is sufficient as well. If shiro does not keep up battle scars and impossible odds he goes down about 50% slower than the lich.

The only "difficult" part of that mission is not running into the middle of the ambush the lich sets up. That is just common sense stuff that should have learned much earlier in the game. Unforuntaly, not everyone played ch1 to know that and bothered with the densly packed mob areas in the southern shiver peaks either. Comparing the eras of the game, when ch1 was released it had far more difficult segements in it compared to ch3. The gates of madness was easier than the endurance match in thunderhead keep. Nothing in ch2 was that hard to complete, unless someone made a mistake. The only question was if it was done quickly enough for masters.

Orinn · Nov 20, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Been stuck here for the last 10 hours now, just repeating the mission over and over. I'm duoing with a friend, we've finished prophecies and factions together.

And it's aggravating. Heros don't stay out of melee, so IO gets them all. The casters, the ranger, everyone. I've never so much wanted to literally put my fist through the monitor.

This isn't a challenge. there will be no celebration when it's over. All I will do is be happy that I am finally done. It's a chore. It's the game designers saying to the players "we can do whatever we want, we can make things impossible if we like, to hell with balance, immersion, or anything else that makes a game fun."

Before today, I told many people that they should buy Nightfall. I'm revising that view. Already told one frined that wants to pick it up, not to bother with it, because I know how he plays. He'd get frustrated with it and walk away.

-Loki- · Nov 20, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orinn

And it's aggravating. Heros don't stay out of melee

Stop leaving them on aggressive stance then.

Karlos · Nov 20, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Russell, Please read the thread's main entry at least before posting stuff like that. It's like you have no clue what you're talking about.

@ Orrin, if you put a character in "Passive" or "Pacifist" mode they will run away whenever a melee enemy comes at them.

P A L P H R A M O N D · Nov 20, 2006, 06:43 AM // 06:43

im not too sure i know what you are talking about. me, two guildies and heros beat this mission without capping the shrine in a few minutes, no problem, the first time. we only really did some intuitive body blocking, then let loose. my guild leader controlled his monks well, and the three of us (all paragons) destroyed him. frankly, i was almost a bit disappointed, he didnt seem anywhere near as hard as in factions. i agree with most of the above advice; if you can, take some real players with you, body block, decent prot on your tank, etc.

Kook~NBK~ · Nov 20, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Did the mission tonight with a PUG group. Had my Me/N set up with SS and Empathy + interrupts. Our Ranger had interrupts, as well. We had 2 heal monks, an Ele, stance tank, and can't remember who all else.

What we did was have the tank engage Shiro with 1 monk keeping him up, and the rest of us took out the Lich and went and capped shrines. When we got done, we came back and unloaded on Shiro - he lasted about a minute.

Orinn · Nov 20, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Stop leaving them on aggressive stance then.

They haven't been on agressive stance since about 30 minutes into the NF preview. I don't like having my heros run outside of the aggro bubble to engage targets. When on "guard" they try to kite once in a while, but will more often stand right next to melee when they decide to wand. The monks especially (and no, no touch skills) will stand RIGHT BESIDE ME and try to wand shiro. While I'm in melee with him.

I've brought SV necro. Failed. Body-blocked: he teleported past and killed my monks. Brought SS + Empathy heros. Failed. I'm sick of this mission. I asked around, some people had been failing this mission for 2 WEEKS.

2 weeks to complets a single mission successfully? This isnt' fun. For the people who have the right build and passed it, great. We can't get past it, finally gave up after 12 hours. And I'm recommending to anyone now: don't bother buying Nightfall, it is obviously falling away from being a casual, fun game to pick up and play for a few hours at a time.

MaglorD · Nov 20, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orinn

They haven't been on agressive stance since about 30 minutes into the NF preview. I don't like having my heros run outside of the aggro bubble to engage targets. When on "guard" they try to kite once in a while, but will more often stand right next to melee when they decide to wand. The monks especially (and no, no touch skills) will stand RIGHT BESIDE ME and try to wand shiro. While I'm in melee with him.

lol, you can stop them wanding him by removing their weapon

Shantel Span · Nov 20, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

I really could care less what people say about this, but me and my guild all love the challenge of the Realms of Torment...please, Anet, please, do NOT change anything of the difficulty of the Realms, it is WONDERFUL, and I hope the Elite mission will prove just as challenging!